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  1. #1
    Senior Member Uzumaki Macho's Avatar

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    SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    In this VS battle, the Straw Hat's side consists of:

    All 9 Straw Hats
    The Straw Hat Grand Fleet
    The Minks
    Law and the Heart Pirates
    Jinbe and the Sun Pirates
    Kin'emon, Kanjuro, and Raizo

    The Big Mom Pirates consists of all 4 Sweet Commanders and all other members besides Big Mom.


    Scenario 2: Sabo and the Vinsmokes aid the SHGF.
    Scenario 3: Big Mom helps the Big Mom Pirates.
     
         

  2. #2
    will of tomato Tomato God's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    They lose all 3 sinarios
     
         

  3. #3
    Bipolar Sage Dęvîa Puęrî's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Too many variables lol
     
         

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    Hashirama_and_Madara HashiraMadara's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Make SH clones on each scenario and they will still lose
     
         

  5. #5
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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Let Big Mom fight and the Strawhats + friends still mop the floor with all of them.

    Luffy > Big Mom
     
         

  6. #6
    Konoha no Kiroi Senko YellowFang's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    I think,
    1- SHs lose
    2- SHs win
    3- SHs lose
     
         

  7. #7
    Baters gonna Bate chopstickchakra's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    I'm assuming Minks includes the Dukes? Would they be in character and unable to fight together and fight on shifts like against Jack or are they fighting together?

    I would guess the SH team they have a lot going for them and we don't know enough about BM's army. Cracker would be a non factor though because of Nami and FMK. We know enough power will take out BM's 4th commander since Urogue did. So it's 2 Sweet Commanders and her army vs SH team.
     
         

  8. #8
    Shitty Chef Love Cook's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by chopstickchakra View Post
    I'm assuming Minks includes the Dukes? Would they be in character and unable to fight together and fight on shifts like against Jack or are they fighting together?

    I would guess the SH team they have a lot going for them and we don't know enough about BM's army. Cracker would be a non factor though because of Nami and FMK. We know enough power will take out BM's 4th commander since Urogue did. So it's 2 Sweet Commanders and her army vs SH team.
    How is Cracker a non factor ? Why do you give that advantage to Nami where she knows his weakness and can abuse it again the same way she did in the first fight ?

    If Nami has intel so has Cracker, and I think it's way more likely for Cracker to tell some subordinates to keep Nami busy than it is for Nami to be able to focus a 100% on Cracker in a war scenario. Nami was no match for enraged army members and she doesn't have the vivre card to protect her from Homies anymore.

    Cracker still is someone who pushed Luffy to an 11 hour fight, without being able to his full potential. If he creates a battlefield of Cracker clones 90% of the Grand Fleet wouldn't be able to deal with that.

    So eliminating Cracker like that and saying he is a non factor is pretty ridiculous.

    and even IF Nami can have her private battle with Cracker it still takes someone like Luffy a long time to deliver him the final blow, taking him out of the war basically. And with Luffy out of the equation that is an instant loss.
     
         

  9. #9
    Baters gonna Bate chopstickchakra's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Cook View Post
    How is Cracker a non factor ? Why do you give that advantage to Nami where she knows his weakness and can abuse it again the same way she did in the first fight ?

    If Nami has intel so has Cracker, and I think it's way more likely for Cracker to tell some subordinates to keep Nami busy than it is for Nami to be able to focus a 100% on Cracker in a war scenario. Nami was no match for enraged army members and she doesn't have the vivre card to protect her from Homies anymore.

    Cracker still is someone who pushed Luffy to an 11 hour fight, without being able to his full potential. If he creates a battlefield of Cracker clones 90% of the Grand Fleet wouldn't be able to deal with that.

    So eliminating Cracker like that and saying he is a non factor is pretty ridiculous.

    and even IF Nami can have her private battle with Cracker it still takes someone like Luffy a long time to deliver him the final blow, taking him out of the war basically. And with Luffy out of the equation that is an instant loss.
    A. Because that's her main form of attack why would you assume it wouldn't be discovered again if we go under the assumption it's her first encounter? B. Jinbe and the upper Fishmen pirates all have FMK which produces water. So between those two points Cracker's biscuits(which is the best thing about him in a fight) are ineffective.

    Nami not having the vivre card isn't as impactful since she has literally thousands of foot soldiers from the fleet, the Heart Pirates, the Minks and all she has a good body of cover. Plus her attacks are area based attacks and she doesn't need to be in proximity once they start she can set up an attack and move.

    90% wouldn't be able to deal with it if they're able to stay dry which in this scenario is unlikely.

    It took Luffy ALONE 11 hours but it wouldn't be Luffy alone attacking him so it wouldn't be 11 hours. How long do you think it would take Luffy to beat a Cracker if he could happen to bypass all the biscuit soldiers seeing as he took him out pretty easy once he actually hit him? Seems to me Law would make that a pretty easy feat.
     
         

  10. #10
    Shitty Chef Love Cook's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by chopstickchakra View Post
    A. Because that's her main form of attack why would you assume it wouldn't be discovered again if we go under the assumption it's her first encounter? B. Jinbe and the upper Fishmen pirates all have FMK which produces water. So between those two points Cracker's biscuits(which is the best thing about him in a fight) are ineffective.

    Nami not having the vivre card isn't as impactful since she has literally thousands of foot soldiers from the fleet, the Heart Pirates, the Minks and all she has a good body of cover. Plus her attacks are area based attacks and she doesn't need to be in proximity once they start she can set up an attack and move.

    90% wouldn't be able to deal with it if they're able to stay dry which in this scenario is unlikely.

    It took Luffy ALONE 11 hours but it wouldn't be Luffy alone attacking him so it wouldn't be 11 hours. How long do you think it would take Luffy to beat a Cracker if he could happen to bypass all the biscuit soldiers seeing as he took him out pretty easy once he actually hit him? Seems to me Law would make that a pretty easy feat.
    You missed the point, that was not what I was saying at all.

    In short: Why give all these advantages to Nami. You assume she or Jimbei cross paths with Cracker and find out about the water weakness again. In the meantime there are plenty of other fighters that can hold up Nami or Jimbei. But the next advantage you give Nami is that you pair the one with the weakness up to the ones that can abuse that weakness.

    Cracker's tactic is to hide and let his clones do the work. When there is a war raging on that is the perfect setting to hide yourself and not get noticed. He has the stamina to produce those clones for at least 11 hours. And even while soggy they're still a force to be reckoned with.

    If you take into account that Cracker is just 1/4 of the sweet commanders and it takes this much hassle to take him out. How can you label that a non factor ? He will still be a huge pain in the ass even IF they manage to take him out. So you can throw Law in the mix and think that'll be that but Big Mom still has 3 more sweet commanders on top of the enraged army.

    On topic:

    The Grand Fleet has no chance.

    If you take the big guns of the fleet you have:

    Luffy, Law, Zoro, Sanji, Jimbei, Inu, Neko, Cavendish, Bartolomeo,

    If you distribute them over sweet commanders

    1) Luffy might take one with back up, lets give him Barto
    2) Law might take one with back up, Cavendish can help
    3) Zoro and Sanji might take one but I doubt it, but for the sake of the argument lets go with it.
    4) Inu and Neko are each a half commander if we take Jack as example.

    And Jimbei is a spare for option 2,3 or 4 because I doubt it'll be enough.

    The rest of the grand fleet with the exception of Sai and Hajrudin weren't a match for Doflamingo family members, so they have no business fighting enraged army members.

    So you have Sai, Hajrudin, Nami, Robin, Franky, Usopp, Brook, Chopper, Pedro, Carrot, Kin'emon trio

    VS.

    Tamago, Bobbin, Amande, Diesel, Randolph, Mont D'or, Galette, Opera, Brulee, Zeus, Prometheus, and the 2 bearded giants.

    That is exactly 13 vs 13, but I don't see a lot of those matches go into the fleet's favor.

    Bottom line, Big mom has enough big names to counter all the big names of the SH's. And everything needs to work out perfectly if the SH's want to win.

    I just don't think that a lot of them can stand up for themselves against a yonkou crewmember.

    Yes I know some fleet members are missing but same can be said for big mom's army. We don't know how big that is yet. And people like Ideo, and Orlumbus, jean bart and Bepo etc. can play bowling with the fodder army.
     
         

  11. #11
    Baters gonna Bate chopstickchakra's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Cook View Post
    You missed the point, that was not what I was saying at all.

    In short: Why give all these advantages to Nami. You assume she or Jimbei cross paths with Cracker and find out about the water weakness again. In the meantime there are plenty of other fighters that can hold up Nami or Jimbei. But the next advantage you give Nami is that you pair the one with the weakness up to the ones that can abuse that weakness.

    Cracker's tactic is to hide and let his clones do the work. When there is a war raging on that is the perfect setting to hide yourself and not get noticed. He has the stamina to produce those clones for at least 11 hours. And even while soggy they're still a force to be reckoned with.

    If you take into account that Cracker is just 1/4 of the sweet commanders and it takes this much hassle to take him out. How can you label that a non factor ? He will still be a huge pain in the ass even IF they manage to take him out. So you can throw Law in the mix and think that'll be that but Big Mom still has 3 more sweet commanders on top of the enraged army.

    On topic:

    The Grand Fleet has no chance.

    If you take the big guns of the fleet you have:

    Luffy, Law, Zoro, Sanji, Jimbei, Inu, Neko, Cavendish, Bartolomeo,

    If you distribute them over sweet commanders

    1) Luffy might take one with back up, lets give him Barto
    2) Law might take one with back up, Cavendish can help
    3) Zoro and Sanji might take one but I doubt it, but for the sake of the argument lets go with it.
    4) Inu and Neko are each a half commander if we take Jack as example.

    And Jimbei is a spare for option 2,3 or 4 because I doubt it'll be enough.

    The rest of the grand fleet with the exception of Sai and Hajrudin weren't a match for Doflamingo family members, so they have no business fighting enraged army members.

    So you have Sai, Hajrudin, Nami, Robin, Franky, Usopp, Brook, Chopper, Pedro, Carrot, Kin'emon trio

    VS.

    Tamago, Bobbin, Amande, Diesel, Randolph, Mont D'or, Galette, Opera, Brulee, Zeus, Prometheus, and the 2 bearded giants.

    That is exactly 13 vs 13, but I don't see a lot of those matches go into the fleet's favor.

    Bottom line, Big mom has enough big names to counter all the big names of the SH's. And everything needs to work out perfectly if the SH's want to win.

    I just don't think that a lot of them can stand up for themselves against a yonkou crewmember.

    Yes I know some fleet members are missing but same can be said for big mom's army. We don't know how big that is yet. And people like Ideo, and Orlumbus, jean bart and Bepo etc. can play bowling with the fodder army.
    It's not just the two of them, a lot of the Sun pirates have FMK. Plus Nami's aoe is wide enough she could catch a biscuit not intending to do it and find out about it that way. If Nami found out about it in the manga then there's no reason she wouldn't find it in this scenario, you're trying to give your stance the advantage by claiming something which happened in the manga wouldn't happen again.

    When his biscuits are soggy they're not much of a force to be reckoned with though seeing as a regular jaw bone and bite force could break through them.

    We still don't know or have any indication the Enraged Army is > let alone significantly > the family.

    Inu and Neku are half of a commander(argued by most as the strongest commander in his crew) by themselves which is why I asked if it was the same them in the manga or if they'd work together because the Dukes together would be a good match for a commander it seems.
     
         

  12. #12
    Senior Member Blaze Arirut's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    I think Shs has a good chance winning in all 3 scenarios
     
         

  13. #13
    Shitty Chef Love Cook's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by chopstickchakra View Post
    It's not just the two of them, a lot of the Sun pirates have FMK. Plus Nami's aoe is wide enough she could catch a biscuit not intending to do it and find out about it that way. If Nami found out about it in the manga then there's no reason she wouldn't find it in this scenario, you're trying to give your stance the advantage by claiming something which happened in the manga wouldn't happen again.

    When his biscuits are soggy they're not much of a force to be reckoned with though seeing as a regular jaw bone and bite force could break through them.

    We still don't know or have any indication the Enraged Army is > let alone significantly > the family.

    Inu and Neku are half of a commander(argued by most as the strongest commander in his crew) by themselves which is why I asked if it was the same them in the manga or if they'd work together because the Dukes together would be a good match for a commander it seems.
    Yeah I'm pretty sure Doflamingo's cronies were stronger than Big Mom's army /S, that is not a reach at all. Yet Jack is argued by 'most' to be the strongest commander.

    There is no discussing this with you. You keep twisting everything in favor of your own argument. It's silly.
     
         

  14. #14
    Baters gonna Bate chopstickchakra's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Cook View Post
    Yeah I'm pretty sure Doflamingo's cronies were stronger than Big Mom's army /S, that is not a reach at all. Yet Jack is argued by 'most' to be the strongest commander.

    There is no discussing this with you. You keep twisting everything in favor of your own argument. It's silly.
    Did I say the family was stronger than her whole army? No, I didn't. I said there's nothing to show one branch of her army is > the family at this point. The only thing that supports that idea is the fact they belong to a Yonkou crew.

    You're the only one who tries to twist anything, show me what I've twisted. You tried to twist the events of the manga where Nami stumbled upon Crackers' weakness mid fight and say it wouldn't happen this time just because it gives your side an edge if Cracker doesn't get handled as easily as he did on WCI
     
         

  15. #15
    Shitty Chef Love Cook's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by chopstickchakra View Post
    Did I say the family was stronger than her whole army? No, I didn't. I said there's nothing to show one branch of her army is > the family at this point. The only thing that supports that idea is the fact they belong to a Yonkou crew.

    You're the only one who tries to twist anything, show me what I've twisted. You tried to twist the events of the manga where Nami stumbled upon Crackers' weakness mid fight and say it wouldn't happen this time just because it gives your side an edge if Cracker doesn't get handled as easily as he did on WCI
    No again you don't get what I'm saying. Because an other event in the manga showed that Nami was being handled by the enraged army in a matter of minutes.

    She will probably have a hard time spraying Cracker when she is in a book or mirror world.

    You perfectly line up the fights like how you want them to play out. But it's a war, look how hectic marineford was. It's much more likely that cracker floods the battlefield with his clones while he is safe in a distance. And some unknown Fishmen aren't taking down those clones. Jimbei maybe, and Nami needs help to deliver the final blows.

    But the bottom line is that you said Cracker is a non factor, which is bullshit because it takes a lot of power and time to take him down. While BM still has at least 17 other strong people running around.
     
         

  16. #16
    ..A Member To Remember.. LBeezy's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Cook View Post
    No again you don't get what I'm saying. Because an other event in the manga showed that Nami was being handled by the enraged army in a matter of minutes.
    It was literally only Nami and Luffy.. you can't even try to compare that to Nami having the whole SHGF there as well.. Nami isn't the type to be on the front lines either.. so her safety is pretty much guaranteed for the majority of the fight.. at least enough time to be like "hey everyone, those soldiers get weaker when they're wet!" And then use it to their advantage.

    She will probably have a hard time spraying Cracker when she is in a book or mirror world.
    Already countered this above.

    You perfectly line up the fights like how you want them to play out.
    This is exactly what you're doing as well though.. only difference is, is that Nami finding out Crackers weakness did happen in the manga. So chopstickchakra isn't going off of a random theory here.. he has facts to base this idea off of.

    But it's a war, look how hectic marineford was. It's much more likely that cracker floods the battlefield with his clones while he is safe in a distance. And some unknown Fishmen aren't taking down those clones.
    They don't have to "take them down" on their own.. but just figuring out how water makes the soldiers weaker is a big advantage for the SH's side of this battle.


    Jimbei maybe, and Nami needs help to deliver the final blows.

    But the bottom line is that you said Cracker is a non factor, which is bullshit because it takes a lot of power and time to take him down. While BM still has at least 17 other strong people running around.
    SHGF has other strong people running around too tho..
     
         

  17. #17
    Shitty Chef Love Cook's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by LBeezy View Post
    It was literally only Nami and Luffy.. you can't even try to compare that to Nami having the whole SHGF there as well.. Nami isn't the type to be on the front lines either.. so her safety is pretty much guaranteed for the majority of the fight.. at least enough time to be like "hey everyone, those soldiers get weaker when they're wet!" And then use it to their advantage.



    Already countered this above.



    This is exactly what you're doing as well though.. only difference is, is that Nami finding out Crackers weakness did happen in the manga. So chopstickchakra isn't going off of a random theory here.. he has facts to base this idea off of.



    They don't have to "take them down" on their own.. but just figuring out how water makes the soldiers weaker is a big advantage for the SH's side of this battle.




    SHGF has other strong people running around too tho..
    You countered nothing in fact you're making it worse. I'm not lining up the fights at all. I'm saying anything can happen. And in your scenario's a couple of things have to fall perfectly into place for Nami to execute her strategy.

    And you keep emphasizing on how the fleet the fleet, But if you scroll up I put BM's crew vs the SH's crew there and there is about an equal number of capable fighters on both sides. So everyone will be busy and it's unlikely that there is back up to spare to body guard Nami.

    Also if there isn't someone of Luffy's caliber to take advantage of the weakness. Cracker will decapitate Nami with his pretzel sword.

    And if Luffy has time to do that who is fighting the other 3 sweet commanders who are (most likely) stronger

    It took them 11 hours to beat him, to display him like some kind of chump who gets beat when it rains is just stupid. He still has an 860 Mil bounty on his head.

    Crackers haki is strong enough to cut into Luffy's arm in G4th. But sure he is a non factor in the war. Just splash some water and we will be fine.

    Also you say only Nami and Luffy, well luckily for the fleet that is only the strongest guy they have then...
     
         
    Last edited by Love Cook; 01-11-2017 at 10:52 PM.

  18. #18
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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Well G4 punches are absolutely needed to bypass Cracker defense alone and he's not even the strongest Sweet commander that alone should tell you something.
     
         

  19. #19
    ..A Member To Remember.. LBeezy's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by Love Cook View Post
    You countered nothing in fact you're making it worse.
    I disagree.


    I'm not lining up the fights at all. I'm saying anything can happen. And in your scenario's a couple of things have to fall perfectly into place for Nami to execute her strategy.
    You're trying to make our ideas sound impossible.. when the manga proves otherwise.. nothing has to "fall perfectly into place". The manga itself shows this happening.. we're not only saying that Nami can figure out this weakness again, we're adding the possibility of a Fishman finding out this weakness as well..


    And you keep emphasizing on how the fleet the fleet, But if you scroll up I put BM's crew vs the SH's crew there and there is about an equal number of capable fighters on both sides. So everyone will be busy
    hold on right there.. this is you doing the same thing as chopstickchakra, except the only difference is that he actually has manga facts to back up his ideas..

    and it's unlikely that there is back up to spare to body guard Nami.
    Nami should be just fine for a majority of the battle..

    Also if there isn't someone of Luffy's caliber to take advantage of the weakness. Cracker will decapitate Nami with his pretzel sword.
    Zoro? Sanji? Jinbei? Usopp????

    All can take care of the wet soggy biscuit soldiers.. and get Cracker out of the battle fairly quickly, without taking too much losses..

    And if Luffy has time to do that who is fighting the other 3 sweet commanders who are (most likely) stronger

    It took them 11 hours to beat him, to display him like some kind of chump who gets beat when it rains is just stupid. He still has an 860 Mil bounty on his head.

    Crackers haki is strong enough to cut into Luffy's arm in G4th. But sure he is a non factor in the war. Just splash some water and we will be fine.
    I'm honestly not saying that Cracker is a "chump".. I'm just saying that there are characters who can get rid of him..
     
         

  20. #20
    ..A Member To Remember.. LBeezy's Avatar

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    Re: SHGF and allies vs Big Mom Pirates (w/o Big Mom)

    Quote Originally Posted by TRE MERCER View Post
    Well G4 punches are absolutely needed to bypass Cracker defense alone and he's not even the strongest Sweet commander that alone should tell you something.
    You don't think Zoro > Cracker?
     
         

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